http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ Canadian Rugby Forums » Tag: salaries of Rugby Canada - Recent Posts en Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:40:02 +0000 http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1834 Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:31:56 +0000 Toothlesstiger 1834@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Well now that you two, Faust &amp; Popo, have told us everything we did not need to know about every other marginal sport on the map what is your collective opinions as to how to fix rugby in Canada.?</p> <p>Skateboarding is encouraged by parents because they can kick their kids out the door with a board under their arm and be gone for hours sometimes days.</p> <p>Lacrosse has gone through more Renaissances or resurrections than any other Canadian sport. It is a nostalgic heritage thing. And, when it cannot support TV coverage it will be buried awaiting the return of the angels to roll back the stone from the sepulchre.</p> <p>The new phenom of UFC or MMA is the current trend and it will evolve as has all fight and wrestling TV productions have in the past. Will it stay around, probably. Pity!!</p> <p>Does any governing board of rugby here in Canada have a clue as to what would have happen and what it would cost to turn rugby&#39;s growth predicament into positive and significant sustainable growth? </p> <p>I doubt it. If so, surely some one would have lucked onto it. But there again we would have to toss up between abandoning the iRB and foregoing their hand outs and having faith and confidence in ourselves and the game to collectively work together all across Canada and devote our time to improving the quality of club league rugby.</p> <p>How would that come about you ask? Through of all things having player pools where every position on every club team week in and out throughout the playing season when every team shirt is seriously competed for. </p> <p>That will come about in the same time frame as it will take to build that solid foundation of rugby family commitments through exploiting the benefits, fun and healthy competition amongst our 5 - 14 year old elementary community school kids. </p> <p>There is probably one of them just down the road from where you are sitting, an elementary school that is. Right now we have literally thousands of such pools of potential growth of between 200 - 300 eager and excited little buggers all primed to be out there or in a gym, just loving the throwing of the ball around and running endlessly, boys and girls, for hours.</p> <p>Simple folks! Just take a step back and decide is it better for you, your friends and all of your clubs to play better domestic league rugby and have your memberships full than investing the next 3 RWC cycles beating your heads against the proverbial brick wall to be still standing at best in the current 14th. position in the World and still be losing 3 out of every 4 International Test that we play, blowing a bundle and the future of domestic rugby.</p> <p>Though decision! </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1826 Wed, 03 Feb 2010 02:04:24 +0000 Faust 1826@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Popo, you are spewing carp about nothing, You stated that your carp is nothing but an opinion without any source to back up your carp. J</p> <p>Hey lawn bowling in the commonwealth games, does not make it popular. More Carp from you.<br /> About attendance, name some events that attracted attention in North American Martial Arts that MMA has?<br /> Where is your facts? Oh just opinion.</p> <p>Your point about Lacrosse is what? That it was regionalize like Rugby is in Canada until people like Fixx and Parfrey actually sold it in the province they live in. Is that your solution, keep it where it is popular? Sounds like you are just another BC Rugby player who wants to keep the status quo. </p> <p>We have been trying your method of pure grassroots and it fails. Every high school has Rugby in Metro Alberta and it does <strong>NOT</strong>translate into players going to the clubs. Why? THere is nothing for them. No scholarships. no chance for a semi professional league, nor a place to sure of your talent in even a provincial network. </p> <p>You want rugby to get bigger, then it needs exposure, that means TV, Newspaper, and so on. They do not advertise minor league poor product.Until people see, they do not know about it. When people see and love it, then have an infrastructure where they can play. Of course you think that is stupid, but look how gold medals have opened a sport to public that never knew that existed before.</p> <p>People like you are the ones who are keeping rugby back in the stone age. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1825 Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:41:40 +0000 Popo 1825@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Faust I am sorry I missed your facts and still saw a lot of opinion. </p> <p>I stated my view as opinion.</p> <p>&quot;skateboarding would go through another growth phase. This time the cycle peaked around 1987 after skateboarding had directly influenced international culture ranging from the hard-edged punk style of music that most skaters preferred to the baggy, earth-tone clothes and retro tennis shoes that skaters wore.&quot; - this hardly qualifies as a fact especially when you don;t cite your source.</p> <p>&quot;See videos by bands like Suicidal Tendencies and such. Through mediums like Much Music and MTV , kids saw their fav band in skateboard videos. Do I have to take you in a time machine to see it? Any old punk from the 80&#39;s knows this. FACT &quot; - Yes skate boarding appeared in music videos but what does that prove? It might correlate to a boom in skate boarding but that does not necessarily translate to causation which is your opinion.</p> <p>&quot; Gyms that are specializing in MMA. Ok check out Fight Nation who are franchising their product Gold Gym. Website<br /> UFC opened up its first franchise Gym. Website MMAjunkie<br /> NFL Football players are using MMA as offseason training. The leading tackler for Minnesota Viking was training with (i believe Couture). Ultimate Fighter had several ex football players -Back issue Inside MMA on HDnet<br /> Examples recently joined<br /> Matt Mitrione<br /> Rex Richards<br /> Brendan Schaub<br /> Wes Shivers<br /> Herschel Walker<br /> Michael Westbrook&quot;</p> <p>Um sure there are gyms that now specialize in MMA but I ask you what makes up MMA? could it be the martial arts, which have been around for how long? Last time I checked some martial arts enjoy Olympic status which means they are undertaken in at least 90+ countries. Yes the UFC which is a fight promotion has had huge success in the last 10 or so years and there are more gyms now that specifically train fighters in multiple disciplines but those disciplines in some cases have been around for hundreds of years and have been very popular in many countries as evidenced by Olympic status (Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Wresting, Boxing etc.) , NCAA designation (wrestling), and so on. MMA had a huge built in audience ready to go before they even hit the airwaves... there was nothing new just a professional venue for people who did not have one previous (wrestlers, and various other martial artists) and that is only in North America.... In Asia MMA was hugely popular in a professional context well before UFC with shoot fighting and the K-1 events to name a few.</p> <p>Point is MMA took off cause there was a huge audience of people already in place of which many already participated in some form or other.</p> <p>and the other point is your example is another example of correlation not causation and the causation is your opinion.</p> <p>As for your lacrosse example sure I will give that one to you... there may well be a causation effect due to the placement of NLL franchise in Alberta... but it does not change that fact that without an NLL franchise, Lacrosse is a big sport in BC and has been for over 50 years and the same goes in Ontario. </p> <p>As for rugby in Canada we have been trying various forms of the elite model for over 10 years and have dropped down the international rankings like a rock....</p> <p>I see our disagreement stems from one single idea and that is I believe that people become fans of things they participate in and can relate to. Where as you believe people become fans of things they cannot relate to and do not participate in.</p> <p>My opinion is that money should be spent on developing the game of rugby not an elite few where as you believe money should be spent on developing an elite few and not the game.</p> <p>I believe that the best way to expose the most people to the game of rugby for the least amount of resources is through getting them to participate at some level where as you believe spending huge sums of money on marquee games and leagues will attract people who have no experience to the game and convert them to participants.</p> <p>My desire is for rugby to be played by all and enjoyed by all and i see the best way of doing this is by getting people involved in the game, not excluding them. Which is currently done by high registration fees, high club dues, horribly structured leagues, clubs that only seek top level players and don&#39;t develop from within (see any Vancouver Island based club, see BC Rugbynews for a couple of great examples), Stringent entry requirements for new teams and so on. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1799 Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:19:49 +0000 Harry Craig 1799@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Don&#39;t get me wrong Mark does a great job with BC Rugby News, but I don&#39;t have to agree with all his opinions. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1798 Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:58:20 +0000 winger14 1798@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Mark&#39;s Calendar got stuck in 1991.</p> <p>Winger14 </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1797 Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:36:09 +0000 Harry Craig 1797@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>hornybee <a href="&quot;&quot;//canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1791&quot;&quot;&quot;">said</a>:</cite><br /> Jesus Harry,<br /> Even I know it was the Blizzards of the NASL, they folded in 84 or 85. They were huge. Maybe you were still Wandering out in Ajax and didn&#39;t know much about Toronto.</p> </blockquote> <p>Hornybee there you go again with your Toronto centric approach. (you and I know it it is the centre of the universe, but our BC and Alberta friends don&#39;t) I remember the Blizzard, I even remember the Metros-Croatia who beat Minnesota for the cup in 76. The Blizzard were big for a while, not huge and as you point out they folded. I hope we don&#39;t get something like the old NASL for rugby because it was a failure. Give the MLS a chance and see how they do, it seems to be a better ecomomic model than the NASL. If they do start proffessional rugby league here in North America will they release players for internationals and many other questions arise. Would help or hurt rugby to have a league that starts and fails.</p> <p>I think my point was that we didn&#39;t have a good proffessional set up in Canada but we piggy backed on the one in the USA which might have been designed to suit their needs not ours.</p> <p>Popo and Faust seem to be saying many of the same things but still disagreeing.</p> <p>Then there is Mark Bryant in BC telling us we don&#39;t need anything better because we have the CDI BC Premiership which is the best club league in the world. Look out Stade Francais and Wasps, James Bay and Capilanos are coming. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1796 Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:22:59 +0000 Faust 1796@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>The most successful NLL franchises are in the USA, not Canada. Do I need to pull up stats for you?<br /> Colorado, Rochester, Philadelphia, and Buffalo have been more stable than the Canadian franchises.<br /> It is not opinion, but fact.<br /> The issue about financial health of the NLL is that they expanded too quickly and too many shady owners. </p> <p>We have the facilities in North America to have a Heineken Cup, 6 Nation game, or so on. If the NHL can play games in Europe, why can&#39;t Elite Rugby teams play exhibition games here?</p> <p>the key is to generate positive interest and maintain it. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1795 Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:11:32 +0000 Faust 1795@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Popo, really where are we ranked in the world?<br /> I say that we only made a recent gain when we had elite aka clubs in Canada. </p> <p>Let us go through your other statements. Because you have posts zero facts to back your stance. I mean zero. </p> <p>Facts, on Skate Boarding-<br /> <blockquote> skateboarding would go through another growth phase. This time the cycle peaked around 1987 after skateboarding had directly influenced international culture ranging from the hard-edged punk style of music that most skaters preferred to the baggy, earth-tone clothes and retro tennis shoes that skaters wore. </blockquote><br /> See videos by bands like Suicidal Tendencies and such. Through mediums like Much Music and MTV , kids saw their fav band in skateboard videos. Do I have to take you in a time machine to see it? Any old punk from the 80&#39;s knows this. FACT</p> <p>Gyms that are specializing in MMA. Ok check out Fight Nation who are franchising their product Gold Gym. Website<br /> UFC opened up its first franchise Gym. Website MMAjunkie<br /> NFL Football players are using MMA as offseason training. The leading tackler for Minnesota Viking was training with (i believe Couture). Ultimate Fighter had several ex football players -Back issue Inside MMA on HDnet<br /> Examples recently joined<br /> Matt Mitrione<br /> Rex Richards<br /> Brendan Schaub<br /> Wes Shivers<br /> Herschel Walker<br /> Michael Westbrook </p> <p>Edmonton Lacrosse has sent several players to elite couture in Las Vegas- Fact</p> <p>Dojos are not MMA. We are talking a global empire. T-shirts, TV deals, bobble heads, PPV, and international force. Besides the Olympics, when did you see Martials Arts broadcasted on TV? When could an average joe name an elite Martial Artist (besides an actor). </p> <p>Lacrosse, local lacrosse expanded so quickly that they were trying to take over the Calgary Saints fields or negotiate to put a Coverall dome in partnership with the Saints. Saints were at that time struggling financially and lacrosse was running out room with increased interest.<br /> Even when CRU was thinking about putting a dome in, Lacrosse was interested to putting in money for it, but they preferred to deal with the Saints. Don&#39;t believe ask Kevin Blanchette.</p> <p>Soccer, as Hornybee stated, we had more success in 80&#39;s when we had professional clubs in North America. Whitecaps and Blizzard helped pushed the quality in Soccer even when membership was low in comparison in Canada.<br /> Also, look at the impact of the Soccer World with the USA.</p> <p>Popo, Rugby needs to be sold to general public and stop going back to the same old players to fork out $40-125 to see a game. By getting the general public involved, then we show the sport potential. That is why NZ played Australia in Japan last year. Some fan will take his coworker to the game and he will get hooked and then take his son the next time. Then he will emulate the hero he watched. Golf boomed with Tiger Woods. Hockey opened in the USA, because Bobby Orr and then Wayne Gretzky. Yes, they were reasonably popular , but they never had the boom to people who never thought of playing the sport and they were in the news day after day. Even Lacrosse which was only mentioned when Minto Cup was happening, now it is the news more frequently.</p> <p>Why couldn&#39;t the IRB put a 6 Nation game in New York or Los Angeles? </p> <p>You can disagree with as much as you want, but if you do not see the game at an elite level and with the right marketing, then you will not attract outside/new fans. New fans = New players.<br /> If you think that we have gone down this road, then tell me one time in Canada where we actually professionally marketed an elite game that would attract interest to general public in a good way.<br /> If not, try to name one time that Rugby tried to escape the boundaries of trying to market itself outside of the confines of its own community.</p> <p>Again, I have posted facts, you have posted opinion. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1794 Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:00:12 +0000 Toothlesstiger 1794@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Well Hornybee at $10,000.00 for 2010 and more in the future how do you want to pay for that, by debit or credit card or will you want that to be added to the cost of all who are interested enough to have a fully paid up membership with R.C., R.O. and of course the Club dues. It was debated to death at the AGM with the resolution to go forward for the upcoming season. </p> <p>Much of the negative comments on this was based on the lack of quantifiable numbers and or any actual Rogers regions picked up the Toronto series. What real interest would their be in Ottawa for the expanded Marshal Div games unless there is full participation by clubs qualifying and being included in the same Marshall league.</p> <p>If Ottawa wants it&#39;s own home games covered and then perhaps Niagara will that be just the one $10,000.00 invoice for all or do we anticipate perhaps three such invoices.</p> <p>It is good to note that Drew is not lost totally to our rugby community regardless of whichever beach he is tanning himself on in the South Pacific. </p> <p>Drew I think you have something there at the end of your post,&quot;who manages what regarding rugby in Canada and why, would be a great step forward.&quot; while Moosehead also touches of a similar situation or concept,&quot;the creation of Hockey Canada which is dedicated to the elite level of hockey in Canada.&quot;</p> <p>Our current infra structure is too cumbersome and at the top end here in Canada R.C. is trying to serve two masters which frequently runs to disaster.</p> <p>Our recreational game from mini flag to CDI and Marshall are always going to be in conflict with the needs of the world governing body the iRB. In essence they are supposed to be the same but only in thought and staffing where they cover and provide support to all it&#39;s members in way of materials,programs and in almost at all levels of the game some financial support and local technical interfacing through the NAWIRA concept and its new &quot;look&quot;.</p> <p>R.C. is supposedly a deserving case whereby we are provided with an additional funding for three years out of four with both strict auditing and conditions as to the use of such funds.</p> <p>If R.C. had enough monies in its own right and could thereby support a significant number of staff to deliver those same programs that the iRB have then we would be up and running in terms of rugby overcoming the technical road bumps that we seem to come unstuck at when trying to get out there and spread the gospel according to Webb Ellis.</p> <p>We cannot cut our umbilical cord with the iRB but R.C. cannot serve the provincial as well as the international responsibilities adequately or effectively.</p> <p>The domestic recreational game should be governed exclusively through a board of working committee governors, delivering all of the necessary coaching, development and officiating courses down to the clubs. I cannot see why in todays IT world that we need to continue to work with sub unions. They more than not throw up long lasting road blocks to growth, development of the game.</p> <p>R.C. may be invited to join such a Board established by the Council of the Provinces and have an observer role in all matters relating to the game , leagues and national finals.</p> <p>There is a lot being said about the NLL and it barely makes its way financially other than the likes of Toronto and perhaps Edmonton or Calgary but the US franchises only exist because NHL owners have arenas that need to generate revenues 24 /7. The franchises that fail do so because there are not enough bums in seats.</p> <p>The new Canadians are not coming from natural rugby or lacrosse environments and while we &quot;tut tut&quot; soccers dismal participation record in World Cup Soccer, none the less the 835,000 registerred members of the Canadian Soccer Association or their parents or spouses are not churning over in their beds worrying about something as remote and removed from their local summer soccer fields of literally thousands of communities across the whole of Canada, if their mens national team has qualified for the WORLD CUP in South Africa this summer.</p> <p>They have success in making their game clean and simple to become involved in operating on the best principles of our nemisis ice hockey which gobbles up so many of both the summer and winter family recreational dollars.</p> <p>So, as Popo has said earlier, if we want to establish the longevity of the game in Canada we have to have more than one pathway of entry and participation than the old school program where the game depends on having someone on the inside of each and every elementary and high school that pitches the game and possibly the club membership concept.</p> <p>There are so many new schools at both levels opening all, across Canada and it is totally naive to think that rugby will be so represented.So, we lose out and the soccer program continues to lead in the summer drive for new players and participation numbers while in such parts of Canada where hockey competes for players in the winter they will also win hands down.</p> <p>Drew you may recall from your experiences that it was always easy to set up flag rugby clinics where a school had a rugby and club affiliation. But how many of the schools with predominately new immigrants form non rugby cultures where the teachers interests did not include rugby did you really bring on side in that count of 20,000 grades 7 &amp; 8 kids?</p> <p>I do not suggest the scrapping of the club system nor abandon the provincial governing bodies but some how you have to at some time stop suggesting that the Oakville Crusaders is the epitome of a community rugby centre. It is not, it is the most successful example of a traditional rugby club in all of Canada and possibly North America.</p> <p>As Popo pointed out such structures creates more obstacles to growing the game from outside of the current club system is fraught with visible and invisible barriers to an opening and community wide participation as in soccer. By the way Oakville does enjoy having the largest soccer associations in all of Canada while the parents on the whole have one of the highest income, standard of living and minor sport participation levels in Canada.</p> <p>Time for some real interspection and look for what we have chosen to ignore over these many changing years. This is not Stelenbosch or good old Blighty or Bay of Plenty we are in Canada where the almighty sports franchise dollar is God. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1793 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:34:00 +0000 Popo 1793@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>One last thing Faust...</p> <p>I would say Soccer is a very strong, stable, and successful sport in Canada given the high level of participation which provides a foundation of support for 3 successful pro franchises. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1792 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:08:30 +0000 Popo 1792@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>&quot;Skating Board boomed when received affiliation to music scene and they transformed. Video and magazine pushed the sport from South Californian land surfing to a world wide.&quot;</p> <p>Faust&#39;s opinion not fact</p> <p>&quot;Martial arts was popular, but look at it now. It is marketing dream and clubs/dojo are popoing up everywhere especially ones that MMA, not just Martial Arts.<br /> There are a gyms affiliated with Golds who train for MMA.&quot;</p> <p>Faust&#39;s Opinion not fact</p> <p>Sure in Alberta Lacrosse was not Big but in BC (especially Victoria and Vancouver) and Ontario Lacrosse has been huge well before NLL and without NLL.</p> <p>Faust I don&#39;t mind when people call me wrong when they have actual facts. </p> <p>Again I say because you didn&#39;t notice it or do it, does not mean it did not exist or was not popular. </p> <p>But thats alright your a rugby guy who in my experience tend to be very narrowly focused and oblivious to what goes on outside of rugby.</p> <p>And to correct a couple of your misconceptions... Skateboarding has always had a strong affiliation with music and counterculture. Sure it might have had its origins in California but that is about all you got right. Skate boarding in my opinion is hugely popular because it is easy participate in it... grab a board and away you go... </p> <p>Dojo&#39;s have always been around and popping up everywhere. have you been buried at the bottom of ruck for 20 years.</p> <p>&quot;As said, we have millions of kids in Soccer and that has not transferred to elite level. But we will see what the professional game does in Toronto.<br /> BTW the last time we were in the World Cup is when we had a good professional program in Canada.&quot;</p> <p>I disagree with you here Faust, I would say Canada has a hard time making the world cup in soccer more due to the fact that there are 100&#39;s of countries who play the sport at an elite level that makes qualifying for a 32 team tournament every 4 years quite difficult. </p> <p>There are vastly greater numbers of countries who participate in soccer at an elite level with only 32 spots available for the WC every 4 years.</p> <p>In rugby there are 10 countries who are elite at rugby than there are 10 more who take it somewhat seriously than there are all the other countries who really are neither here nor there.</p> <p>And to clarify for some of you others, I am advocating for some inclusive options to rugby in order to get more people involved and interested in the game so they will support programs that develop the game and the players in Canada.</p> <p>What I am against right now is the attitude that has been clearly displayed by many of the responses to my original comment which is to keep promoting exclusivity, more of the same of directing resources to a select group of players and begging for handouts from the same people that they do not seek to include in the game.</p> <p>What kills me is that there are so many people who would love to give rugby a try but the existing rugby community has not time for them other than their wallets as well demonstrated by Fausts comments.</p> <p>Rugby is a simple game and is a joy to play too bad its potential is stifled by those who only see &quot;ELITE&quot; </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1791 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:44:08 +0000 hornybee 1791@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Jesus Harry,<br /> Even I know it was the Blizzards of the NASL, they folded in 84 or 85. They were huge. Maybe you were still Wandering out in Ajax and didn&#39;t know much about Toronto.</p> <p>Interesting though how the NLL have had trouble keeping franchises going.</p> <p>Only problem is I just don&#39;t see a professional game anytime soon in Canada, How do you define Elite I guess. I do like the attempt to broaden the top league here in Ontario through local cable shows. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1790 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:15:53 +0000 Harry Craig 1790@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>What good proffessional soccer set up did we have in Canada in the early to mid eighties?</p> <blockquote><p><cite>Faust<br /> BTW the last time we were in the World Cup is when we had a good professional program in Canada.<br /> </cite></p></blockquote> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1789 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:44:27 +0000 Faust 1789@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Popo, Lacrosse was popular as Senior B hockey and field lacrosse was even less so. When Calgary and Edmonton received franchisesin NLL, the minor lacrosse BOOMED here. People who never even knew about lacrosse started to play or have their kids play. Having an elite team in the area encourages grass roots sports to grow.<br /> Again wrong.</p> <p>Skating Board boomed when received affiliation to music scene and they transformed. Video and magazine pushed the sport from South Californian land surfing to a world wide.<br /> Again Wrong</p> <p>Martial arts was popular, but look at it now. It is marketing dream and clubs/dojo are popoing up everywhere especially ones that MMA, not just Martial Arts.<br /> There are a gyms affiliated with Golds who train for MMA.<br /> Again Wrong</p> <p>As said, we have millions of kids in Soccer and that has not transferred to elite level. But we will see what the professional game does in Toronto.<br /> BTW the last time we were in the World Cup is when we had a good professional program in Canada. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1788 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:45:16 +0000 Toothlesstiger 1788@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Drew, good to see that you are not completely off the rugby map.</p> <p>You have touched on a significant point &quot;who manages what regarding rugby in Canada and why, would be a great step forward. &quot;</p> <p>This dovetails with Moosehead&#39;s &quot;Hockey Canada certainly is not involved in recreational or old timer hockey leagues. They split off the amateur end of hockey from the elite level hockey along time ago when Canada was doing so poorly in international hockey. This resulted in the creation of Hockey Canada which is dedicated to the elite level of hockey in Canada.&quot;</p> <p>Rugby Canada has it&#39;s seat at the iRB and as such access to all the developments within the ever changing game. While we must interface with a governing body such as the iRB then we have an umbilical cord that we cannot cut as in the case of Hockey Canada.</p> <p>On the other hand the Provincial Presidents (The Council of the Presidents is where all recreational rugby and its leagues and development begins. However works best there has to be a separation between the &quot;church &amp; state&quot; without cutting the necessary cord while at the same time the presidents should establish amongst themselves a Board that will clearly identify and establish the necessary divisions of responsibilities such as coaching, officiating, discipline, domestic tournaments (national championships) and many others. </p> <p>I would agree that in Popo&#39;s comments I will sincerely agree with the abolition of sub unions, they are a constant source of &quot;stand-off either amongst themselves or more importantly with the provincial unions e.g. the long running stand -off between the ORU and the EORU that went on from the time that the ORU decided inappropriately to exclude the Ottawa clubs from the now Marshall division.</p> <p>Drew from your personal experience I am sure on reflection that you can recall how near impossible it is to gain access to elementary or high schools for the purpose of introducing the various variations of the game unless there is the proverbial door opener on staff at the school.</p> <p>If rugby was as generally accepted sport as hockey then ever school door would be open to rugby, but sadly that is not the case. In the 60s &amp; 70s the game prospered and finally bloomed in the 90&#39;s at the high school level till today.</p> <p>While the game is exciting, challenging it has become a macho thing for the grades 9 - 12 to be part of, it is not the kind of affection or affiliation that Winger talks of but an opportunity for the macho and not so talented to showcase themselves within the school community. </p> <p>Those that are going to join and be part of the club structure will always be there and will always be the minority of any school program. The rest will fall by the wayside as club rugby requires the player to turn up two nights a week and cuts seriously into Friday nights efforts and Saturdays dating time and those are many of the school players that do not make the transfer over to club rugby.</p> <p>The amateur / recreational game has to be set up in such a way as to be accessible and with out any speed bumps in the the new and interested school kids and their parents way of fully participating.</p> <p>The key is the parents involvement which at the high school level there is little or no involvement.</p> <p>To achieve Wingers Utopia the provincial bodies have to collectively place both time money and imagination to involve every community in the very earliest of introductory rugby, flag, commencing at 5 going on 6 and by the time that player is playing grade 12 high school rugby both he and his parents will be hooked on the game and all of it&#39;s antiquated ethos and structures that are todays roadblocks to it&#39;s growth today.</p> <p>Take from me, who has had a love for the game since Bill McLaren got me interested in the game over the play by play radio broadcasts. I have only played a smidgen of rugby but have gladly given the past 17 years working to make the game more accessible and acceptable. </p> <p>All of my observations above are honest opinions of the machinations of the game and it&#39;s political hang-ups, provincial or sub-union machinations that leave the non rugby heritage person outside scratching their head and wondering if it is worth their effort to get them and their families involved in this exciting and spectacular game called rugby. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1787 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:01:18 +0000 drewmacpherson 1787@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Rugby is not for everyone, that&#39;s part of its appeal, but it is a great game which still has a huge potential for growth in Canada, at both the elite and especially the recreational level. The real problem is where to draw that line (between elite and recreational), and who controls/administers it. Rugby in Canada desperately needs a continuum of skill/size and intensity related game options for all, not a single option no matter what your interests/ability. For example there should be a non contact version/s of the game for all ages, as there should be an elite branch for all ages (an unapologetic elite level). A much more discernable way as to who manages what regarding rugby in Canada and why, would be a great step forward. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1785 Sat, 23 Jan 2010 02:00:26 +0000 Moosehead 1785@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>Popo <a href="//canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1784&quot;">said</a>:</cite></p> <p>Its quite simple really rugby in Canada does not give a rats ass about the 99% of people who are just looking for some sporting competition in their spare time. They do not want a lifestyle... other sports provide this rugby does not.</p> <p>Its not all about high performance and scholarships and what not for people. Other sports recognize this but rugby does not. </p></blockquote> <p>If your interested in recreational rugby then set up your own recreational rugby league. I am sure clubs aren&#39;t going to stop you from doing that nor can they. So, all one really needs is people with the time and desire to set this up. This goes for mini rugby to adult recreational flag rugby. One does not have to wait for Rugby Canada to do it. As said it is not rocket science to set up mini rugby or any league structure it just takes a lot of time and effort.</p> <p>Hockey Canada certainly is not involved in recreational or old timer hockey leagues. They split off the amateur end of hockey from the elite level hockey along time ago when Canada was doing so poorly in international hockey. This resulted in the creation of Hockey Canada which is dedicated to the elite level of hockey in Canada.</p> <p>Rugby Canada needs to focus on the elite level of Rugby and other organizations can focus on the recreational game.</p> <p>Once you have a conflict between elite and recreational it produces mediocrity. Just look at soccer in Canada with the Canadian Soccer Association having the men&#39;s team ranked something like 55 in the world with millions of kids playing recreational soccer. This is because there is no focus in their organization and too much conflict in their mandate which is the reason Canadian soccer has failed to qualify for the World Cup in 16 years.</p> <p>Lacrosse</p> <p>This was successful because they play in world class facilities. Rugby in Canada does not have this. They have no access to top facilities to start a pro league as Rugby games here are played in public parks. Too bad that rugby clubs in Canada were not forward thinking enough to build their own club grounds/stads as none exist in Canada except maybe Fletcher&#39;s Field and Calgary Rugby Park being the exceptions. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1784 Fri, 22 Jan 2010 23:27:15 +0000 Popo 1784@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Lacrosse was popular long before NLL especially in BC and Ontario.</p> <p>Tonnes of people play Lacrosse all across Canada.</p> <p>Just because you did not play it Faust does not mean it did not exist.</p> <p>As for Skateboarding... was popular and around for a long time before big time contests and TV exposure.</p> <p>Martial Arts were hugely popular before UFC came along.</p> <p>the TV exposure has helped capture more interest but these sports made it to TV or a professional level because of an already existent huge base of people interested in the sports due to their participation in them at varying levels...</p> <p>you are an exception....</p> <p>It is not rocket science, people support what they know. </p> <p>How does one get to know something, by doing it.</p> <p>As for the High School to adult rugby issue, that is not rocket science either....</p> <p>Clubs are only looking for high performance athletes and only care about the performance of their top team... while all other teams are the tackle dummy&#39;s and spare bodies for the 1st team...</p> <p>Its quite simple really rugby in Canada does not give a rats ass about the 99% of people who are just looking for some sporting competition in their spare time. They do not want a lifestyle... other sports provide this rugby does not.</p> <p>Its not all about high performance and scholarships and what not for people. Other sports recognize this but rugby does not. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1783 Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:07:04 +0000 Faust 1783@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Popo, you are incorrect. If you rely on Rugby participant to sponsor the whole sport, then you are sadly mistaken. You need outside fans who do not want to play or work the grassroots, but just watch the game and enjoy. </p> <p>The biggest issue is that they keep increasing prices of tickets and only attract the participants, instead attracting other spectators to the game. I do not play lacrosse, but I watch it. Other did the same and brought their kids to the game and guess what the kids are now playing it. </p> <p>Since NLL has brought lacrosse to cities like Edmonton, Toronto, and Calgary, there is a boom in the number participants to the sport. Same thing can be stated for skating board in the 80&#39;s. MMA now. People watched MMA and now they are looking to participate. These organizations also market to younger generation with visits from the pro players to high schools and so on.</p> <p>High School to club, you are correct. Some issue is this that you are competing with other sports and many with scholarships to Universities in which we lack in Canada. Look at the USA, the biggest club for the Eagles is a chiropractic school, Life University. We don&#39;t even have decent University program (although it is getting better). Japan markets its clubs through work and even offers incentives for time off to play. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1782 Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:20:09 +0000 winger14 1782@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Very true although I&#39;d offer that the biggest reason that players do not go to clubs from schools is a lack of emotional attachment to the club(s) on offer.</p> <p>In school it&#39;s easy to have reasons to join up, particularly if the school has a sense of identitythat the kids share in.</p> <p>Extending that to a club is easier if the kids can be exposed to that club during the high school season, so that the bond / attachment can form.</p> <p>To do that you need club bodies on the ground in the schools. Easy if club memebers are teachers, a challenge if they are not as job flexibility becomes more of an issue. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1781 Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:06:15 +0000 Popo 1781@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Faust as much as you make good points.... you got it wrong.</p> <p>Rugby&#39;s problems in Canada stems from the fact that rugby insiders view rugby outsiders as customers.</p> <p>One needs to think of people in Canada as participants, partners, people to be included in the game not a source of funds.</p> <p>rugby suffers the worst of any sport in Canada of elitism and exclusivity....</p> <p>It can be seen by the barriers to entry that are thrown up at every level...</p> <p>If you want to improve rugby in Canada you need to get rid of the utterly ridiculous structure of Sub unions, unions, and clubs. </p> <p>Structure leagues and levels of play based on merit and competition. Make it as easy as possible for new teams to enter, not hard.</p> <p>Make it as easy as possible for new players to join and participate in the game. Which also means offering scaled down versions of the game...</p> <p>Rugby is the only sport that is played the same way from recreation to professional level... every other sport in Canada is scaled back as you go from elite to recreation...</p> <p>People who participate in sports tend to support those sports they participate in.</p> <p>As long as rugby is seen as an exclusive sport by the majority and one that none of them will ever participate in there will be none or very little in way funds flowing from the majority to Rugby....</p> <p>The biggest problem in rugby is still its inability to translate High School players to adult rugby... Which is due to its utter lack of options. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1780 Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:46:49 +0000 Faust 1780@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Didn&#39;t we have the agent of change in the early 2000&#39;s?</p> <p>Here is a fact. Rugby is a sport in which we can learn from elite countries of the world, but Canada is an unique market that requires knowledge of people who could be our customers.<br /> We need to learn how to market the game to us!!<br /> Lacrosse did it, why can&#39;t we? </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1776 Wed, 20 Jan 2010 04:34:16 +0000 Harry Craig 1776@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Hornybee, tongue is firmly planted in cheek I suppose. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1773 Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:00:53 +0000 Toothlesstiger 1773@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Harry, the same way the Bolsheviks did in 1917, they had a revolution and then murdered all those in-charge.</p> <p>May not be an acceptable solution but it worked for them for some 70 years. By that time all this group of posters will probably be in Depends of pushing up the daisies. </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1771 Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:02:55 +0000 Harry Craig 1771@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>clivegibson <a href="//canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1765&quot;">said</a>:</cite><br /> <em>Can we not retire the debt along with the people who created it?</em> </p></blockquote> <p>How do we do that Clive? </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1767 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:16:37 +0000 Frank 1767@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Are the board members seriously trying to change the constitution so that they can stay in power longer? Isn&#39;t that illegal? </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1765 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:48:13 +0000 clivegibson 1765@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p><em>Can we not retire the debt along with the people who created it?</em> </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1763 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:18:04 +0000 irishlock 1763@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>In all seriousness, it&#39;s nice to give opinions on an internet forum, but if you actually want something done speak to the representatives from your Union who will attend the AGM. They are, in effect, your elected reprensentatives.... </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1762 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:51:57 +0000 hornybee 1762@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Because Harry it is the best league in the Country, maybe even the world!</p> <p>Outsource all Admin work to India? Isn&#39;t it already in Wales? </p> http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/topic/bcrugbynewscom-has-up-on-its-website-analysis-of-it-poll-and-a-concern-of-the#post-1761 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:30:07 +0000 Harry Craig 1761@http://canadianrugby.ca/forums/ <p>Shouldn&#39;t money for CDI come from BCRU as it is a provincial league. Why will clubs from the rest of the country want to subsidise it. </p>