Canadian Rugby Forums » General Discussion

U20 Canadian Championship

(38 posts)
12

  1. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  2. newbie
    Member

    Does anyone know how a kid from BC that was on the U20 team that went to Russia and chose not to play for the Vancouver Island Crimson Tide, can end up playing for the Rock in the National Championship.

    I am told he is not the only one from BC being flown out to play for the Rock.

    Seems rather unfair to the local Newfoundland boys to be importing players for the National Championship

    Posted 1 year ago #

  3. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  4. Harry Craig
    Member

    Who said life was fair. My understanding is that anyone eligible to play can play on any team they want to. Selection policies are up to each local team on who they want to include. Alot of Toronto kids played for Niagara, but then Toronto chose not to enter thsi year.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  5. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  6. Popo
    Member

    Nothing new here.... Clubs have been doing it for eons. Especially in BC.

    Shouldn't expect anything less here.

    There is not a rugby team or Club in Canada that would start and develop a local player over an import.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  7. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  8. Harry Craig
    Member

    Actually I have to disagree Popo. There are many clubs who do a great job developing good domestic players, mine the Wanderers among them. If a good import shows up why say no but we haven't ever really gone out looking for them. Many other clubs across the country do the same. Play the best player available where ever he or she comes from.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  9. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  10. newbie
    Member

    I am talking about provincial teams not club teams.
    What also makes this so confusing (for me at least) is that I keep reading about how strong the Rock rugby program is. If it is that strong why do they need players from elsewhere in Canada.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  11. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  12. Frank
    Member

    It is about time that the players from BC went east. It is way better rugby and they have better coaching in NFLD. Stop your crying about where the players go to play, at least they are playing and they will learn a few new cuss words from the world's finest.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  13. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  14. Enzo
    Member

    Well, this all shows where the best rugby players in Canada come from. Anyways... is todays championship game being broadcast anywhere anyhow? Can it be followed on the internet?

    Posted 1 year ago #

  15. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  16. willyg
    Member

    half-time score: Rock 7, Wave 5

    Posted 1 year ago #

  17. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  18. willyg
    Member

    Final Rock 13, Wave 10

    Posted 1 year ago #

  19. Ad Bot

    Posted 1 year ago

  20. newbie
    Member

    Congrats to the Rock and invited players on the win. What a shame the BC players that played for the Rock can't stay and play for the Atlantic Rock team but I see they must get back home to play for the BC Bears.

    Well done Vancouver Wave players you have done your province proud!

    Posted 1 year ago #

  21. irishlock
    Member

    I think the eligibility rules are clear to the teams involved and if they had not played for another team previously in the competition I see no problem with this.

    Congratulations to the Rock! Great performances from the start of the competition to the end. Hope this will result in some recognition for some of these players at a national level.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  22. Enzo
    Member

    Was this a BC vs BC Canadian Championship match? This is becoming a national controversy. Where can I find the teams rosters? How weak is the Newfoundland team without those imported BC players?

    Posted 1 year ago #

  23. Harry Craig
    Member

    The rosters are in an article on the Rugby Canada site dated July 28. Someone go through them and tell me how many BC players are on the Rock. Please also check and make sure that all the BC players are from BC, because it seems to me that it's OK for BC to pick up players from across Canada but something is considered wrong by the left coast crowd when the process is reversed.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  24. newbie
    Member

    There is an article on BCRN talking about the "parachuting in" of the three players.

    There seems to be an exchanging of players from coast to coast. Players come to BC to attend UVic or part of the carded program and are ordered here or they just come to work and play club rugby. Teams participating in the CRC can protect players and the rest are free to play anywhere they want. Looking down the rosters for these teams you can see a number of players have returned to their home province to play there even though they work/go to school and play in other provinces........fair enough.

    We are not talking about the CRC we are talking about age grade rugby. I can only imgine how the young men who played for the Tide and Fraser Valley representing their "Zones" feel when three of their own who didn't play locally are flown out to play in the championship.

    If this is acceptible to Rugby Canada and I guess it is as BCRN states this was done with RC's blessing then perhaps next year the younger age grade teams will start. Local players may just say to hell with it, if they are going to bring in players I think I will play another sport. So much for building the sport of rugby at the grass roots level.

    If the Rock thinks so much of these players why don't they keep them and put them on their U20 list in the CRC roster? Now what is happening is these three who decided not to play regionally are bumping players out of a spot on the BC Bears U20 roster. Something is broke RC

    Posted 1 year ago #

  25. researcher
    Member

    Congratulations to both teams. Bottom line...it is nice to see so many boys playing the game.

    Regarding the importing of players, it appears that everyone does it. Nothing new.

    If anyone, including newbie, is questioning the Rock's roster, I would like to direct you to Pat Fleck's interview on the following link. Mr. Fleck clearly outlines how he and his staff go about fielding their BC team. It doesn't seem any different from the Rock or any other teams to me. ENJOY!

    http://www.blip.tv/file/2238836

    or go to BC Rugby News, Videos, BCU20 Rugby - Vancouver @ VI - June 14, 2009.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  26. winger14
    Moderator

    On that note and the comments from Mark Bryant on BC Rugby News, Mark's priorities are Island first, BC second, Canada third mentality, at least that's what is apparent to me from his editorials. So anything he comes up with needs to be taken with a very large grain of salt in my view.

    That also includes his views on the restructuring of the coaching staff.

    Winger14

    Posted 1 year ago #

  27. Gold Finger
    Member

    The result shows what happens when a city team plays against a Province, albeit with some last minute additions.

    I hope the Vancouver players learned a life lesson or two about playing in an hostile environment and the role of distractions in playing before a National final.

    Well done Rock. Apparently there was some visa issues with a few NRC players on Parfrey's radar or it could have been worse.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  28. newbie
    Member

    Hmmmm lets see, fly across the country arrive on Thurs and play on Saturday.

    Play in a "hostile environment" and lose by two missed conversions.

    I would have hoped the Province team would have shown better than that against the city team. Hopefully Parfrey and all others that are importing players will have their visa issues settled before next summer.

    Can't imagine what kind of "distractions" might have swayed the westcoast boys off coarse!

    Posted 1 year ago #

  29. bs_detector
    Member

    Goldfinger and Newbie,

    Your "poor little city" vs "big bad province" spin is laughable and typical but not unexpected. Here are a few facts to put things in perspective.

    Metro Vancouver population is 2.2 million
    Newfoundland and Labrador population is approx 525,000. Rugby is only played in the metro St. John's area -population approx 175,000.

    Vancouver Rugby Union is comprised of 20 clubs (according to Wikipedia)
    Newfoundland Rugby Union is comprised of four clubs- Swilers, Dogs, Vandals and Baymen.

    Vancouver Wave team consisted of many Canada U20 players and was primarily a U20 group.

    Rock U20s were primarily a U19 group since there are only approx 30-40 (tops) 18-20 year olds who play rugby here.

    Considering these facts which team would you expect to "show better"? Who should be more proud of their performance?

    The Rock dominated in both possession and field position and it took Vancouver 20 minutes into the second half to even enter the Rock's half of the field. The Rock pack destroyed the Wave pack including their two Canada U20 props. Have a look at the small picture in the newspaper article attached here to see what the day was like for the Wave pack - Wave front row destroyed and Rock #8 running wild.

    http://www.thetelegram.com/Sports/Outdoor-activities/2010-08-02/article-1642799/McNicholass-toe-points-Rock-in-the-right-direction/1

    Now that we've put your city vs province spin to rest,focus on the "oooooh they picked up a couple of players angle".

    Either way NFLD makes more with the limited players/resources they have then the mighty VRU with their choice of hundreds of players and national team players to boot.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  30. newbie
    Member

    BS you should write for the Telegram, your description of the game is far more interesting than the article. I love how you use all those great phrases like "dominated and destroyed and #8 running wild" It makes even a three point win seem exciting.

    So BS, do you think it is alright for provinces to import age grade players for a national championship game?

    And please don't assume I am from Vancouver because I am not.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  31. bs_detector
    Member

    Newbie,

    Descriptions are accurate.

    When one team has the ball and is in the other team's half for the greater percentage of the game they have dominated.

    When a forward pack is pushed around, wheeled and their international front row regularly lifted and twisted they have been destroyed.

    When a #8 regularly makes 15-20 m, scores a try and is man of the match he has "run wild".

    Three point games that come down to the wire are very exciting.

    You haven't addressed the facts refuting your weak and inaccurate position/excuse that the Vancouver team were at a disadvantage because they were playing a "provincial" side.

    It's not for me to decide on rules regarding where players play. There's a long history of player movement and there are administrative bodies that make the rules.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  32. winger14
    Moderator

    Sooo....

    Let's say for arguements sake that a young University age player was lured to UVic as a means to further his rugby goals. Assume that playing at home in Atlantic Canada wasn't what he wanted as he felt it would be more of the same.

    Let's then say that the player decided to stay on the Island for the summer. Hang out with friends, maybe has a girlfriend, likes Victoria. It happens.

    The player could have played for the Tide but didn't. Could be for any reason, wanted down time, didn't like the coaoches or the style of play, didn't feel at home in the environment...whatever.

    Why not fly the player home to play in the final?

    Don't know if that's what happened, but I don't see anything wrong with it. It's a coaching and management issue fro the team in question.

    Maybe the Wave didn't have as hard a time getting to the final as the Rock did. Good on the East and the Rock. Hopefully the West will be stronger next year.

    Winger14

    Posted 1 year ago #

  33. Frank Levick
    Member

    If those players were previously Nfld based, or Newfies of Origin, or heading to Nfld for school - most would be in agreement with you. That is after all the reason that a 2 or 3 player mobility rule is included in most of our national competitions. If however, those players were flown in a day or two before the final and left after their shower then the rules really need to be looked at, do they not?

    Posted 1 year ago #

  34. winger14
    Moderator

    The only change that I'd like to see is the full roster declared prior to the competition as they do for the ARC. That would include alternates.

    Winger14

    Posted 1 year ago #

  35. newbie
    Member

    BS read Gold Fingers post, that is where the city vs. province was brought up.

    With the domination you describe I am surpised that the rock only scored one try.

    Once again my point is that in my humble opinion flying in age grade players for one game and that game being a national championship is wrong. I don't know if there are rules or guidelines for or against this but perhaps if there aren't it is time there were. Maybe next year the middle of the country teams will import players from the rock and vancouver to help their causes. Who knows, but now that it is out there I guess it is fair for all to do.

    On a plus side it is nice to see people reading and posting on this site again!

    Posted 1 year ago #

  36. William
    Member

    As for the 3 BC players that flew out to play for the rock for the U20 Canadian championship, technically no rules were broken. I have the National Junior Championship manual which all teams signed at the start of the competition and NL obviously read the book. However this is a regional competition and the spirit of the competition was certainly not respected by this move. There are officials from RC that agree with this sentiment but chose not to act.

    One of the issues surrounding these 3 BC players was the way in which all this was handled. BC was blindsided on all this and only found out about these players flying out just before the game at a BC Bears practice. No cutesy call to anybody from anybody. An end run around BC.

    Another point which nobody brings up, is unaware of or just plain forgets to mention is this competition is funded by the players themselves. The unions in BC charge between $225-250 per player for 4 games. RC takes 5 grand per team (12 teams this year = 60k) that goes towards mostly airfare to get teams to the semis and final.

    Two of the three players did indeed have an impact in the final game and a strong argument could be made that the Rock would not have prevailed without them. However I'm calling bs_detector on his summation of the game. It was 2 tries to one for the Wave and it was the kicking that made the difference. Yes, I was there.

    The "distractions" were real, classless, and in violation of the responsibilities of the home union and referee as clearly spelled out in the National Junior handbook. When was the last time anybody witnessed spectators, during a premiership or championship game, inside the 5 meter barrier zone blowing an air horn directly into the ear of the visiting player during each and every line-out? Running down the touch line shadowing the winger, pretending to trip him up? Referee and touch judge allowing it to continue?

    Posted 1 year ago #

  37. Harry Craig
    Member

    As far as playing for other teams it happens all the time in age grade teams where many of the Maritime provinces have recruited kids from Ontario who don't make the cut at home to play for them. I know this has happened recently in both boys and girls teams and I remember it happening with kids from my club playing for PEI in the mid 80s. I know when I was manager of the Ontario Womens Senior team their first three years from 88to90 the eligbility was anyone who had been resident in Canada since December 1 the last year or anyone of Canadian citizenship or birth or parents or grandparents birth. For years Ottawa players played for Quebec.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  38. William
    Member

    The issue, as I understand it with the 3 BC players was:
    1) They are carded and as such receive funding and in kind services from BC.
    2) They are on the BC Bears protected list.
    3) The BCRU and Bears coaching staff had no idea these 3 had even been approached. Outed on Face Book.

    What is done is done and this is in far more capable hands and knowledgeable minds than mine. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I don't see the U20 national competition happening at all next season. At least not under the current agreement.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  39. bs_detector
    Member

    Own up Newbie,

    Goldfinger brought up the "city" vs "province" spin and you chimed in with "[i]I would have hoped the Province team would have shown better than that against the city team". As for the margin of victory, if it wasn't for the numerous (unforced) dropped balls by the Rock backs the spread would have been much greater, but that's rugby. The forwards certainly provided a great platform to attack from that the backs wasted. Perhaps it was the import #13's fault :)

    William,

    Although the try count was 2-1 for the Wave, the points I put forward were valid. The Rock had more possession and field position, the Rock forwards had the better of the Wave forwards and the Rock #8 played a blinder. If you recall, the second Wave try was a counter from inside their own 22m line. This came from an unforced spilled ball following a period of Rock pressure deep in the Wave half. Again, this was poor Rock back play but it doesn't mean the Rock didn't have more overall control in general.

    I agree that the fans on the far side of the field were extremely boisterous but I personally didn't notice anyone inside the 5m barrier. Oh yes, in addition to the air horns, don't forget the guy with the two crashing cymbals. Unlike elsewhere across the country, at least rugby fans were there in large numbers and had a bit of life to them. It was for those specific reasons Rugby Canada chose Swilers RFC as the venue for Canada's last World Cup qualifying game. I don't think it's any different than loud hockey or football crowds or basketball fans that wave things behind the backboard during a freethrow. However, I do agree that if someone was inside the barrier it should have been sorted out.

    Either way, NFLD, or should I say St. John's, puts out great crowds and great rugby players for such a small population/player pool. If the rest of the country did as much with what they have, the game of rugby would be much better in this country.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  40. bisquit
    Member

    I'm going to call BS on BS.
    The whole Rock program is great for a backwater place in Canada and yes the country would be stronger if every little isolated community had a chip on it's shoulder and a rich Doctor willing to fly in reinforcements. They should not have a team in the CRC they do not have the player base to support it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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